On November 5, 2012, Miguel Labrador posted Running for the Office of an Overseer – Church Elections?
In this post, Miguel discusses the then-upcoming elections and Paul’s instructions to Timothy regarding overseers. Miguel translates:
“The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.” 1 Timothy 3:1, ESV
As:
“If anyone desires to stretch themselves out to the attention and care of the church, they have noble intentions.”
He then asks several questions including:
Is it wrong for a person with the desire to be an overseer to verbally declare such a desire or to make it publicly known?
I’ve been thinking about this question, a lot. Most of what I believe about church has been changing in the past year, and the idea of leadership is no exception. To be precise, it’s not my theoretical ideas of church that has changed much, it’s my practice of those ideas.
Over the past year, my approach to leadership within the church have changed as well. While I once believed that a “benevolent dictator” in the form of a Senior Pastor (the man with the vision from God) was a necessary component for the proper functioning of a church, I’m learning to just chill out about leading.
That’s why Miguel’s question been on my mind so much since November. I do want to be a leader among the church. There, I’ve said it.
At the same time I also agree with Jim Wright’s comment that “If I need to seek recognition as an elder (overseer) in the Body of Christ in order to function as an elder, then I ain’t one.” (I emphasized “seek recognition”).
Am I confused? I don’t think so. I am simply acknowledging that I have the desire to pay attention to and care for the church. I want to function as one who helps the church. I can acknowledge this before the Jesus-followers with whom I gather because, well, they probably know already. Even if they don’t, we’re open with one another about our thoughts, feelings, and desires. We still have things we keep from each other, but we’re working on that.
These people won’t let me get too far ahead of myself, either. There’s a diversity of gifts such that when (not if) I get too quiet or too loud I’m either drawn into the conversation or I’m helped to consider others.
Plus, we’ve been too busy sharing Scripture, words of encouragement, what I would call prophesy, impressions, dreams, songs, or pictures, and then making plans to try to put into practice what we’re hearing to really worry too much about titles or positions.
As we participate together, I’m starting to notice the incredible gifting of the believers around me. Because I really want to hear from God, my natural tendency to take over becomes suppressed as I realize that the Creator is speaking through someone else. Someone who would never even have a speaking role in a standard guy-up-front church service.
It’s clear to me that there is an order to our meetings. I’m not worried about lack of structure, because I think God is very structured – just in a way I don’t always grasp until I see it, or maybe some time afterward. I’m not the only one.
As a group, we are learning to notice the order and structure of what God is doing and cooperate with it. We are learning to discern when someone is being loving and helpful and when they are leaving the pasture. We’re learning to pastor (shepherd) one another.
We’re starting to enjoy noticing that someone else has a word from the Lord for us – you know that look? The one that might accompany the thumb in the Bible at the passage the Lord has just brought to their attention? Or perhaps the Scripture they read three days ago and knew God had something specific to say to the group, but didn’t know what it was until they started hearing what others were sharing?
If you’re looking at the faces of the people around the circle in which you’re sitting, it’s amazing what you’ll notice.
Another thing: people in the group encourage me to be a leader. No, not someone with a title or even authority of my own. They just encourage me to use the gifts God has given me to help the body. Of course, that’s the same thing I am encouraging them to do.
Sometimes I do prepare in advance, or think that the Lord has a teaching for me to share, but I never really know where our meetings are going. If you were a stranger visiting us – you might have a hard time figuring out who is leading. After a while, though, you might start thinking that Jesus really was in charge.
I haven’t figured out exactly what the gift of leadership entails, and honestly, that’s ok. So far I think it involves:
- Caring for others and filling in what is lacking when I notice it.
- Letting people know that yes, I think the Holy Spirit really is speaking through you.
- Helping point people toward Scripture.
- Modeling followership by submitting to different people’s visions (for example, ideas on helping other people).
My brothers and sisters know I haven’t got it figured out, they know that sometimes I get too far one way or the other, and they love me anyway. They’re helping me along.
When I look around at the faces participating with me in this adventure, I never know who will be leading me next. Maybe someday we’ll get around to identifying overseers, and maybe not.
I’m totally ok with that.
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Tim
You and Miguel ask…
“Is it wrong for a person with *the desire to be an overseer*
to verbally declare such a desire or to make it publicly known?”
Before they verbally declare, maybe that person can first figure out if they “Qualify” to be an Overseer?
*the desire to be an overseer* might be to desire a “Noble Task” BUT – Do they “Qualify?”
The Bible talks about “Overseers” and “Qualifications” or standards that Overseers must meet.
You can’t have “Overseers” without the “Qualifications” – Can You?
Have you ever wondered? Why? – Paul gives such tough qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9,
for Elder/Overseer if NOT important? For something? For some purpose?
Can we dismiss them all? How many are NOT important? Which ones are NOT important?
You see, I’ve noticed, most who desire to be an elder/overseer “Ignore” or “Twist” the “Qualifications” in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, so they could obtain for themselves this “Position” of elder/overseer.
Titus 1:6-8 KJV – says it nicely.
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*
That *must be* is the same Greek word as: …You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
*Must Be* – Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
*Must Be* – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
Seems to be a small word – but very important. Yes? Is – Blameless – important?
1 – Blameless – Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
Blameless – Thayers – that cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Blameless – Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.
1 Tim 3:2 ASV – The bishop therefore must be without reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NIV – Now the overseer must be above reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NLT – For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against.
How many “Elder/Overseers,” who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering this one **qualification,** (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)
can see themselves as **Blameless,** without fault, above reproach,
and thus qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”
And if you can see yourself as **blameless:** Is that pride?
And no longer without fault? Oy Vey!
Aren’t ALL the requirements important? Which one’s can we ignore?
Tim
Here’s two more qualifications from Titus for “Elder/Overseer” that most who want to be an “Elder/Overseer” today tend to *Ignore* or “Twist.”
Titus 1:6-8 KJV
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For *a bishop must be blameless,* as the steward of God; not selfwilled,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
2 – Just
Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers – 1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
is wholly conformed to the will of God,
and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
3 – Holy
Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.
Now that’s three tough qualifications for “Elder/Overseers.”
1 – Must Be Blameless. 2 – Just. 3 – Holy. — Yes?
Makes an interesting study – checking out ALL these tough qualifications for “Elder/Overseers” – Then checking out those who say they are “Elder/Overseers” compared to the qualifications.
I was ordained. I was in “Leadership.” Folks told me I had this so-called “Gift of Leadership.”
And I “Ignored” these qualifications for elder/overseer.
Pro 29:5 KJV
A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet.
Pro 20:17 KJV
Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
I deceived myself and wound up eating a lot of gravel.
When you believe the lie you start to die…
Tim
This topic of “Qualifications” for “Overseers” is an important and sensitive topic for “The Body of Christ.”
Why did Paul give *tough* “Qualifications?” If not important? – Can we “Ignore” them? Most do.
I know I do NOT meet these qualifications. 1 – Must be Blameless. 2 – Just. 3 – Holy. Just to name a few.
Could the list of qualifications be *a Test* of someone’s “Integrity?”
God test’s and proves “His People” – A Lot – in the scriptures. Yes? Just click on a few of these verses…
Mat 4:1 KJV, Heb 2:18 KJV, Gen 22:1 KJV, 1Pet 1:6 KJV, Mk 14:38 KJV, 1Tim 6:9 KJV, 1Thes 5:21KJV, Psalm 66:10-12 KJV, Psalm 7:9 KJV, Psalm 11:5 KJV, Psalm 26:2 KJV, Jer 11:20 KJV, Ex 16:4 KJV, Deut 8:2 KJV, Deut 8:16 KJV, Deut 13:1-3 KJV, Judges 2:20-22 KJV, Judges 3:4 KJV, James 1:12 KJV.
Why would someone assume the role of, and say they are a “Pastor/Elder/Overseer,”
If they know they do NOT qualify to be a “Pastor/Elder/Overseer?”
Could it be a lack of “Integrity?”
What would you call someone, who called them self an “ “Pastor/Elder/Overseer,”
and knew they did NOT qualify to be a “Pastor/Elder/Overseer?”
What would you call a Medical Doctor, who said they were a Medical Doctor,
and who knew they did NOT qualify to be a Medical Doctor?
What would you call a Lawyer, who said they were a Lawyer
and who knew they did NOT qualify to be a Lawyer?
Would you recommend a Medical Doctor or a Lawyer to a friend
If you knew they did NOT qualify to be a Medical Doctor or a Lawyer?
Wouldn’t it be dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on
a Medical Doctor and a Lawyer who does NOT qualify?
In my experience…
It is dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on “Pastor/Elder/Overseers” who do NOT qualify.
Maybe that’s why “The Religious System” of today is in such a mess …
“Pastor/Elder/Overseers,” – who do NOT qualify – “Spiritually Abusing” God’s ekklesia, God’s sheep.
The Bible warns us, a lot – About – False apostles, many False prophets, False teachers, False Christ’s’, False anointed ones, False brethren, Wolves, Dogs, Swine. Those who love the preeminence. And – To trust No man. Let no man deceive you. And the list goes on…
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man,
and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jer 17:5 KJV
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9 KJV
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:4 KJV
And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: Mark 13:5 KJV
And lot’s of scriptures about trusting Jesus.
Have you ever met a “Pastor/Elder/Overseer” who meets the qualifications? And their children?
.
Amos,
I’ve already had the conversation about titles with you. I don’t use them.
I also note you’ve had this exact conversation with others. They’ve pointed out to you the error of the arguments you’re using regarding the word “blameless.” No one is blameless apart from Christ. But we are not apart from Christ, and so there is a way for us to be blameless: confession and repentance. If you aren’t blameless as the NT describes, it’s because you haven’t confessed and turned away from your sin.
There are instructions for recognizing elders and servants for a reason. The reason is that there will be elders and servants within the body of Christ. Mere fallible human beings, filled with the Spirit of God, helping people follow Christ and strengthen one another. They aren’t called to do anything any other believer isn’t called to do, but they will be those who are more mature: in other words, their lives are starting to dependably reflect conformity to the life of Jesus Christ.
I’ve never met a perfect person. But I have met people who are elders, overseers, pastors, teachers, prophets, and evangelists. And I’ve met their children. I’ve even met some Jesus followers who (in error, I believe) use titles. Despite this, their lives reflect the life of Jesus Christ.
I’m glad we don’t have to be perfect in order to obey. Paul and Barnabas appointed (or recognized) imperfect people as elders (Acts 14:23, Acts 20:17).
Unless you think they found some perfect people…
Tim
Seems we’re in agreement about “Titles.”
You write…
“I also note you’ve had this exact conversation with others. They’ve pointed out to you the error of the arguments you’re using regarding the word “blameless.”
Yes – I have had this conversation with many. And I’ve noticed, the ones who call it “Error” are the same ones who “Ignor” and “Twist” the qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, so they can keep their position of Elder/Overseer. They keep looking for a way to have “Blameless” NOT mean what Paul said – An Overseer Must Be Blameless. I didn’t make that up – It is written…
And Paul sounds serious because he also said these overseers are to be 2 – Just and 3 – Holy. Three words that are quite similar. Blameless, Just, and Holy. I didn’t make up these words – It is written…
[deleted by moderator]
Amos,
Yes, as I’ve said – we agree on titles.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that everyone who has pointed out to you the error of your arguments regarding the word “blameless” has ignored or twisted Scripture. There has to be at least someone out there who honestly disagrees with you.
Isn’t it possible that you don’t have perfect understanding of the concept of being an elder, and that people have tried to explain something to you with which you simply disagree?
Isn’t it possible that there is a way to be an elder that is consistent with 1 Timothy 3:1-6 and Titus 1:5-9?
I don’t think Paul meant that all elders had to meet, in every way, what you think the word “blameless” means. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to recognize elders (Acts 14:23, Acts 20:17). Nor would he have instructed Timothy and Titus to appoint elders if there was no one eligible to be appointed as elders.
So perhaps the Holy Spirit was describing goals to work toward (maturity), and that the body should recognize those who are setting a good example, progressing consistently toward maturity, and who help the body become more mature through their example and teaching.
I deleted the rest of your comment and I’ve kept your second comment in moderation because it’s the same material you’ve written elsewhere.
Why would Paul recognize elders and direct Timothy and Titus to do the same if there was no one eligible to be an elder?
Tim
I’m sad, and disapointed, that you have decided to “delete” part of the first comment and ALL of the second comment that listed – The many tough qualifications besides – Must Be Blameless.
And you cut out the part of those who call these obsevations “Correct.”
And those who repented from taking a position they did NOT qualify for.
I would ask you to reconsider your actions and why you did that.
Thanks
A. Amos Love
.
Amos,
I moderated your comments for the reasons I stated in my previous comment.
While I’d be happy to have you participate in considerate discussion here, I don’t feel it benefits others to simply provide you a forum in which to cut and paste your arguments without really being open to considering what other people are saying.
Please consider responding to the questions I asked previously.
Tim
Tim
There’s lots of questions – can you be specific? – I’ll do my best.
Amos,
Tim – Thanks for continuing the conversation.
You ask a reasonable question. It is one I’ve asked often myself trying to figure this thing out…
“Why would Paul recognize elders and direct Timothy and Titus to do the same
“IF” there was no one eligible to be an elder?”
I do NOT know why for sure? All I can do is try to figure it out for me, today.
And, Today, when I check-out the eligibility requirements, the Qualifications, I know, I do NOT qualify.
And – I’ve also noticed that Paul leaves Titus “a way out.” A way where Titus does NOT have to ordain anyone as an elder/overseer if they do NOT qualify according to this tough list.
Titus 1:5-7 KJV
5… and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
Don’t know if you have noticed this – But…
In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus, …ordain elders in every city.
BUT – In verse 6, Paul “Introduces a Condition” – “Before” Titus ordains anyone – by saying…
5… and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 – *IF* any “be blameless.”
This is a very large, little, word: *IF.*
This *IF* is found many times in scripture. Yes?
Gen 18:26, Gen 18:28, Gen 18:30, Psalm 66:18, Psalm 130:3, Isa 1:19, Isa 1:20, Jer 18:8, Jer 18:10, Jer 22:5, Eze 3:19, Eze 18:21, Eze 33:9, Eze 33:13, John 5:31, John 8:31, John 8:54, John 12:26, etc., etc,…
This “IF” in “Titus sounds like “IF” someone is NOT blameless then do NOT ordain them.
Because – In verse 7, Paul explains why he “Introduces this Conditional” *IF*
7 – For a bishop “must be” “Blameless.”
Paul seems serious about this one qualification. Using “Blameless” twice in Titus and once in 1 Tim 3.
In the next comment – I’ll continue to answer your question.
And go over some of my understandings of why Paul gave so many tough Qualifications.
Titus 1:5… and ordain elders
Titus 1:6 **IF** any be blameless…
Titus 1:7 For a bishop *must be* blameless…
Titus 1:8 …Just, Holy…
Must Be – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
Blameless – Thayers – that cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Just – Thayers – observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless, wholly conformed to the will of God.
Holy – Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness, observing every moral obligation, pure holy.
Tim
Some of this has been said already. And it’s possible this is why the qualifications are so difficult.
Because – I’ve noticed – God – Tests and Proves – His people often in the Bible.
Mat 4:1 KJV, Heb 2:18 KJV, Gen 22:1 KJV, 1Pet 1:6 KJV, Mk 14:38 KJV, 1Tim 6:9 KJV, 1Thes 5:21KJV, Psalm 66:10-12 KJV, Psalm 7:9 KJV, Psalm 11:5 KJV, Psalm 26:2 KJV, Jer 11:20 KJV, Ex 16:4 KJV, Deut 8:2 KJV, Deut 8:16 KJV, Deut 13:1-3 KJV, Judges 2:20-22 KJV, Judges 3:4 KJV, James 1:12 KJV.
Another questioned I started to ask…
Why would someone assume the role of, and want to be recognised as an “Elder/Overseer,”
If they know they do NOT qualify to be a “Elder/Overseer?” Why “Ignore” these qualifications?
Why would someone assume the role of, and want to be recognised as a “Leader?” When Jesus,
commands His Disciples NOT to be called “Leader?” And NOT one Disciple called them self leader?
One thought – Could it be – they believed someones flattery? And are now caught in a trap?
Pro 29:5 KJV, Job 17:5 KJV, Job 32:21 KJV, Job 32:22 KJV, Pro 6:24 KJV, Pro 7:5 KJV, Pro 7:21 KJV, Psalm 5:9 KJV, Psalm 12:2 KJV, Psalm 12:3 KJV, Psalm 36:2 KJV, Psalm 78:36 KJV, Pro 26:28 KJV, 1Thess 2:5 KJV.
Another thought – Could it be a “Test” from God? God “testing and proving” someones “Integrity?”
Job 2:3 KJV, Job 27:5 KJV, Job 31:6 KJV, Psalm 7:8 KJV, Psalm 25:21 KJV, Psalm 26:1 KJV, Psalm 26:11 KJV.
What would you call someone, who called them self, and wanted to be recognised as “ “Elder/Overseer,”
and knew they did NOT qualify to be a “Elder/Overseer?” And “Ignored” the qualifications?
What would you call a Medical Doctor, who and wanted to be recognised as a Medical Doctor,
and who knew they did NOT qualify to be a Medical Doctor? And “Ignored” the qualifications?
What would you call a Lawyer, who and wanted to be recognised as a Lawyer,
and who knew they did NOT qualify to be a Lawyer? And “Ignored” the qualifications?
Would you recommend a Medical Doctor or a Lawyer to a friend
If you knew they did NOT qualify to be a Medical Doctor or a Lawyer? And “Ignored” the qualifications?
Wouldn’t it be dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on
a Medical Doctor and a Lawyer who does NOT qualify?
In my experience…
It is dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on “Elder/Overseers” who do NOT qualify.
I also like what Jim Wright said…
“If I need to seek recognition as an elder (overseer) in the Body of Christ
in order to function as an elder, then I ain’t one.”
I also like what Alan Knox said…
10-12-2011 – http://www.alanknox.net/2011/10/guest-blogger-why-bother-with-the-church/
““I agree that no one (including myself, or Ron, or anyone else)
lives up to the “qualifications” listed in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.”
As I said, you ask a reasonable question – Here are a few other questions worth asking.
Do I qualify to be recognized as an “Elder/Overseer?”
Why do I want to be recognized as an “Elder/Overseer” “IF” I do NOT qualify?
Why do I want to be recognised as a “Leader?” When Jesus said NOT to be called “Leader?”
Can I just do what God asks me to do without recognition? Without qualifying?
Tim
And here is an interesting question…
Did Timothy or Titus ever ordain or appoint anyone as elder/overseer?
Amos,
I agree with you, Alan, and Jim that no one qualifies. But I still think that there can be elders among the flock. Why do I think that?
Paul and Barnabbas appointed elders (Acts 14:23) and they also called the elders (Acts 20:17).
Paul told Timothy and Titus to appoint elders. The New Testament doesn’t record that they did or did not appoint elders, so we can only draw conclusions from what Paul instructed them to do. He did not tell them to “test the integrity of people in the church by asking them if they want to be an elder, and if they say yes, then you know they can’t be trusted.”
Paul provides instructions on how to honor elders who serve well (1 Timothy 5:17) and on how to bring an accusation against elders (1 Timothy 5:19).
The author of James instructs sick members of the church to call the elders to pray for them (James 5:14).
Peter instructs the elders in how to go about their duties (1 Peter 5:1) and John calls himself an elder (2 John 1:1 and 3 John 1:1).
None of these make sense unless there actually were people who served as elders among the believers to whom these letters were addressed.
Paul, James, Peter, and John were addressing real people who although they did not perfectly meet the description of elders in 1 Timothy 3:1-6 and Titus 1:5-9, nevertheless did serve as elders.
I therefore agree with both Alan and Jim that the so-called qualifications of an elder are not filters to screen people out, but rather more like character traits that all believers should be pursuing. The church recognizes those who are sufficiently mature in these character traits to teach and set an example among the flock.
I further agree with both Alan and Jim that believers don’t announce or appoint themselves as elders. Instead, believers who gather to mutually edify one another will naturally recognize those among them who serve as teachers and examples. They do this because it is useful to the building up of the body. How that looks can vary widely between fellowships. But we may still refer to these brothers and sisters as elders.
Tim
I’m familiar with the verses you quoted about “Elders.” Haveing looked at them often.
And in some of them – “presbuteros” elder – can only mean – elder of age.
And – I like this idea about **naturally recognize** those…
“Instead, believers who gather to mutually edify one another will **naturally recognize** those among them who serve as teachers and examples.” NO official Titles or Positions needed.
But – The Title of your post says – “Running for Overseer”
And – You say… “I do want to be a leader among the church. There, I’ve said it.”
Even though Jesus commands His Disciples NOT to be called “Leader.” And none did.
And – The verse you quote at the beginning of the post says…
“The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to *the office of overseer,*
he desires a noble task.” 1 Timothy 3:1, ESV
And – NOT one of the verses you quoted ever mentions “Overseer” or “Leader.”
And – NOT one of His Disciples call another Disciple “Overseer” or “Leader.”
And – NOT one of His Disciples calls them self “Overseer” or “Leader.”
And – You begin your last comment with…
“I agree with you, Alan, and Jim that *no one qualifies.*”
Well, I’m glad we can finally agree on that. Paul “does give” a list NO one can live up to.
Where we disagree is – Why?
You say later on in your comment…
“I therefore agree with both Alan and Jim that the so-called qualifications of an elder are not filters to screen people out, but rather more like character traits that all believers should be pursuing.”
Huh??? Where does that come from? So are you saying? I can be “your” overseer – ”IF” my house is NOT managed well? But I want it to be. And I can teach from the Bible. But NOT for my family. I can be “your” overseer – ”IF” I’m greedy for filthy lucre? And don’t know how to stop? But I’d honestly like to “pursue”stopping? I can be your overseer – ”IF” I’m NOT sober, of a sound mind? (Any suggestions for “pursuing” a sound mind?) I can be “your” overseer – ”IF” I’m quarrelsome, and contentious? I can be your overseer – ”IF” I’m prone to anger?
Does this really sound right to you?
And – 1 Tim 3:1-2, when quoted together, has a very different understanding. NO verses in the Greek. Yes?
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to *the office of overseer,*
he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer *must be* above reproach…
Sounds to me like – Because it is a “Noble Task” this “Overseer” *Must Be* above reproach – Blameless.
There is nothing about “character traits that all believers should be pursuing”
These “character traits” and “Managing well” your house, (“For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?” 1 Tim 3:4-5,) are ALL specifically for those who “aspires to *the office of overseer,*” and want to “take care of the church of God.” NOT for everyone – But for those who desire “The Noble Task.”
And you now confirm my experience – Because – You, Alan, Jim, know *no one qualifies.*
And – You, Alan, and Jim, are now in agreement with me when I say…
“You see, I’ve noticed, most who desire to be an elder/overseer “Ignore” or “Twist” the “Qualifications” in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, so they could obtain for themselves this “Position” of elder/overseer.”
.
Amos,
I’m going to try to address your comment piece-by-piece. Here we go.
Yes, the word translated “elder” literally means old person. Just like the word translated “brother” literally means you have the same parent.
Me too. That’s how I believe it should happen in the church, based on reading all of the passages on elders, not just the two in 1 Timothy and Titus.
Yes, I said I wanted to be a leader. I did not say I wanted to be called Leader. I am a pilot. I don’t want to be called “Pilot Tim.” In the church, I just want to be called Tim. I’m ok being addressed as brother, dear, dad, and various other terms of endearment depending on who you are.
True. None of them call themselves “blogger” either.
It comes from the discussion we’re having and the fact that there were people in the New Testament churches who exercised leadership functions (without titles or positions), according to the passages I referenced for you in my previous comment.
Obviously, I’m not saying you can be my overseer. I don’t know you. We would have to know each other and I and the other believers we gather with would have to have prayerfuly considered whether you were mature enough to help the church the way elders are intended to help the church. Again, the passages I referenced earlier.
Of course the things I didn’t say don’t sound right to me. That’s why I didn’t say them.
There is no word “office” in the Greek text. The phrase “noble task” can also be understood as “honorable work.” So Paul is commending the work we’ll call overseer to Timothy. If you read my post you’ll see that I’m not talking about a position or title, I’m talking about the work of caring for people in the church. Which is honorable work. You’re the one that keeps mentioning position or title, not me.
I disagree. I believe all of the qualifications are character traits. They are also closely related to the fruits of the Spirit. Which of the qualifications are unique to overseers, elders, or any other believer?
By the way, I believe “husband of one wife” also applies to woman in a general sense, that is, believers should be married to one person, for life, of the opposite gender.
I don’t think any of us have changed how we think about the qualifications of an elder. I neither disagree nor agree with your experience. My experience is different, in that I know many people who do not ignore or twist Scripture. I think you probably do too, but it’s easier for you to think of them as ignoring or twisting Scripture than for you to consider that you might be wrong.
I think if you are accusing me of ignoring or twisting Scripture to obtain a position, than you’ve misunderstood me – very possibly because you really haven’t read what I’ve written with an open mind, but instead read only to push your idea that no one within the body is to function in any type of leadership function. Function not position or title.
Regardless of how we describe them, there will be people among the church who take care of others, teach, and set an example of how it looks to follow Christ.
Just so you know, I’ve not been recognized as an elder. I’m not even old, although my children may disagree. I’m not really running for any kind of position among the believers with whom I gather. Perhaps you missed that in my post.
I am, however, a blogger. Since your goal seems to be to accuse me of ignoring or twisting Scripture – and not the mutual edification, based on love, of the body of Christ, I don’t think I’ll be approving your comments anymore. This really isn’t a forum for you to push your own agenda.
If anyone else is interested in what else Amos has to say, you may do an internet search on “A. Amos Love” (include the quotes).